Curse

Shusky · Jun 16, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Oh dear, the "happy majority is playing the game!" argument again

This is perhaps the greatest misconception ever. When I got Factions and decided it was quite a mediocre experience, I stopped playing and posting altogether to get a rest from GW and see if patches come to make it not suck. Meanwhile I had plenty of other interesting things to do with my free time.

It's people that actually care about the game that bother to register accounts on forums and give their opinions. And if someone was too busy playing to drop in and post since April 28th, then it's just plain scary

Uh, just felt the urge to post this little rant. Carry on.

fatcow · Jun 16, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I personally enjoy Factions. However, I must state that I haven't taken a Factions character through the whole game yet. I have brought two of my Tyrian characters over though to complete the Factions storyline.

My Primary Pro of Factions: more quests. Even if a lot of them are Fed-ex type quests, each zone has a large handful of quests associated with it (similar to ascalon in prophecies). This means you spend a lot more time in the zones.

My Primary Con of Factions: all of the quests...yes it is nice that they more fully utilize the zones, but one of my favorite parts of Prophecies is the "frivolous" zones that there is no reason to go to other than to explore. Dragon's Gullet, The Falls, etc.

I could see how for someone new to GW, the factions leveling could be frustrating with how quick it is, however, it is kind of nice to get right to 20. It's not like the game is over once you hit the level cap.

Finally, there are a lot of cool new skills...granted there are a lot of crap ones too, but some of the new ones are going to make for some interesting builds whether you like to farm/PvP/PvE, etc.

If you are expecting something fresh and exciting this isn't it, but if you still enjoy GW and want more content then pick it up, $50 isn't that much.

CyberNigma · Jun 16, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

But- The "Slow Grind" of leveling in Chaper 1 was never what Guild Wars was advertised as anyway.

They basically fixed the game to the way it was meant to be - and people are finding out that they liked to broke version better. (EVERYONE that says Factions sucks, has noted in their reasoning that factions has less MMO style content to it - even though Guild Wars was always advertised as not WANTING to have that style content in it)

And of course we do. Alot of GW players are MMO veterans and lovers, and MMOs imbrace the thrill of getting that new level or skill. When Chapter 1 came out, and even though it was different, you still felt that leveling and getting skills was rewarding - you loved it.

Only thing is, Guild Wars advertised itself (ALOT) that it wasn't an MMO, and you didnt have to worry about leveling or anything - just playing the game. So in Factions they further went into this promise (leveling process is basically tutorial only, and skills are almost all available right as you hit mainland). Only thing is...People LIKED how Guild Wars was a wannabe MMO the first chapter around, and they arent used to the style that Guild Wars is Supposed to be.

Thank you, Former Ruling. I think you may have worded quite a bit better than I did. You hit it dead on. Too many people compare this game to WoW, EverQuest, Ultimate Online, etc 'without the fee'. They're wrong (even though it may be quite a few people). Going back over the things ANet has said, they specifically said its a CORPG and NOT an MMORPG from the get-go.

For those that think the hardcore and/or level grinding aspects are more important...

It's an entirely new type of game in a familiar genre. That familiar genre is what is getting most people. They are still thinking 'inside the box'. People don't argue about not being able to level up in HALO or Quake because they know from experience that those are types of games that you don't level up in. If someone played a FPS shooter where you did level up then the old school FPS'ers would be saying 'wtf'. ANet advertised its position on the lack of grind, the emphasis on skill and not level, etc from the get-go as well. If anything, what we were given in Prophecies from that prospective was not fully what they claimed (there was some leveling up and grind for the PvE side), but the PvP side was as promised (everyone is level 20).

The best thing they could've done to stand by the 'no level grinding' promise was probably not have levels in the first place and just give characters attribute points as they 'learned' the game until they reached the end of pre-searing/shing jae. Then nobody would know the difference. Monsters would just have more attribute points and be more powerful.

Quite a few people seem to have either ignored their statements or just didn't notice any of them and just bought 'the new MMO without a fee', thinking it was like what they'd already played, but free. Of course ANet helped that along by not doing what they did in Factions for Prophecies (or, like I mentioned above, perhaps it was their way of weening people off of grinding so as not to appear too alien).

Truthfully, if you really really enjoy grinding levels then you are playing the wrong game in the same sense that a HALO/Quake veteran looking for something similar would be playing the wrong game.

I suspect that ANet makes (plans to make) more money from having casual players than they do hardcore level grinders. Jeff hinted at that in his latest interview when he said GW is the kind of game you can play for a few months, go onto something else, then grab it off the shelf, dust it off, and play it again when a new chapter comes out. That is definitely not hardcore gaming.

I find achievement in exploring (gates are indeed an issue with me), checking out the lore in-game (imp village, grawl village, dwarf's anvil, frozen leviathan, etc etc), playing the missions (well, at least once or twice), and progressing through what storyline/quests there are. The Yeti/Tengu fight quest in Jaya Bluffs really made my fancy lol (I helped the Yeti), as well as the really funny (kinda lame, but funny) Incredible Sea Monster quest..

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 16, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Six months before Factions came out, I went on a good rant in these forums discussing my concerns about future chapters, and how I felt that ANet was going to have a problem:

Before I go on, I'm going to state emphatically, NO , I am NOT advocating increasing the level cap.

I don't know if I'm a typical player or not, although I consider myself one.

I belong to a good guild that is active in PvP. I play PvP almost every night, but enjoy PvE content as much (or more) than PvP. I play for the exploration, of gaining new skills, items and money. I enjoy competitive play, but not all the time - I'd say that the amount of real time spent is about evenly split between PvP and PvE. I like farming, but not solo, I prefer doing team farming in areas like SF, Tombs, etc and made enough money to outfit every single character I have with 15K armor and farmed enough items to outfit every character with the best (relative term, I don't pay for anything, the items I have are the best USABLE items, I could care less about skins). My Ranger (my first and favorite character) has about 8 different bows, all of them for different situations, my warrior can be an effective sword, axe, or hammer warrior as the situation dictates. I can switch from being a MM to a SS/Orders/Battery necro on the fly. I capped every single skill. This is all in a year's time.

Thus, chapter 2 has some unique challenges for me as a player in order to make me happy.

I don't neccessarily need new armor. I don't need new weapons, the ones I have are more than adequate. I don't need money. I don't feel the need to spend 100K plus ectos to own some "perfect" gold item with a cute skin. I sell my mini pets as soon as I get them simply because they are useless.

So, with my character already level capped, with all the armor and weapons I need, chapter 2 needs something else to entertain me. And this is where Chapter 2 has failed.

It has less content. I could care less what ANet says, doing fedex missions for experience and skll points isn't what is entertaining *to me*. I don't need skill points, or experience, so doing side quests is a waste of time, especially since the vast majority of them are simply the same thing over and over again.

Between the pre-order start of factions, and my ranger standing in the Divine Path having beaten Shiro, it took all of 3 days.

In the 1.5 months of Factions, I have completed the game with 5 different characters - four chapter 1 characters (ranger, monk, warrior, necro) and a ritualist/assasin I created from scratch. And this includes a futile segment of time after our guild joined an alliance farming faction - ultimately for nothing. And nightly PvP. And doing stints in the elite mission areas. And simply going around capping elites. And helping other alliance and guild members get their own characters though the game.

Right now there is little to challenge me in this game. And the game has been out less than 2 months. I still don't need money. I still don't need new armor, even though I bought end of game 15K armor for all of my characters simply because I could. I don't need new weapons, my ranger has 8 different bows for crying out loud. I have already capped all of the skills for my main professions, and have unlocked 90% of the rest - I can roll up any build for any profession anyone would ever need for PvP.

And this is the problem. These new chapters lack sustainability once you're in the position I am in, and this position came much too fast for the amount of money I spent. Perhaps from a brand new Factions player their perception is quite a bit different. That's not my concern. I am the loyal, long time supporter of GW, and I feel like I was ripped off.

Some caveats: I don't care what you THINK ANet intended with Factions, or how long it's supposed to take before I am supposed to be happy with a game and feel I got my money's worth. I am perfectly capable of arriving at my own conclusions for that. I've been known in the past to have played games for YEARS, especially games that are online multiplayer (diablo 2, C&C, Tribes, BF 1942, etc).

I predict the day Diablo 3 comes out, ANet will not get another dime from me. That's almost 100% assured considering what I've spent my money on and what kind of ROI I've gotten in GW:F and how I don't see it getting any better.

I bought 3 copies of Chapter 1, one copy of chapter 2, and if there isn't a compelling reason, this downward trend will continue with no future purchases.

CyberNigma · Jun 16, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I don't neccessarily need new armor. I don't need new weapons, the ones I have are more than adequate. I don't need money. I don't feel the need to spend 100K plus ectos to own some "perfect" gold item with a cute skin. I sell my mini pets as soon as I get them simply because they are useless.

So, with my character already level capped, with all the armor and weapons I need, chapter 2 needs something else to entertain me. And this is where Chapter 2 has failed.

It has less content. I could care less what ANet says, doing fedex missions for experience and skll points isn't what is entertaining *to me*. I don't need skill points, or experience, so doing side quests is a waste of time, especially since the vast majority of them are simply the same thing over and over again.

Between the pre-order start of factions, and my ranger standing in the Divine Path having beaten Shiro, it took all of 3 days.

Thank you. I whole-heartedly agree with you there. Someone else who feels that it's not about the experience/level grinding, but the content. Many games give a good experience without having even implemented levels. I even agree on the content aspect of Factions. In my first message though I wanted to be clear that I wanted to say something good that they should continue without bringing up too much of the bad. The good in my case is the lack of long leveling. The bad of course is exhaustive as far as Factions is concerned. Prophecies without all the leveling would be awesome to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Some caveats: I don't care what you THINK ANet intended with Factions, or how long it's supposed to take before I am supposed to be happy with a game and feel I got my money's worth. I am perfectly capable of arriving at my own conclusions for that. I've been known in the past to have played games for YEARS, especially games that are online multiplayer (diablo 2, C&C, Tribes, BF 1942, etc).

On this one though, I have to say that the experience you quoted is probably a bad thing in the case of this game, well the need felt to quote it. I do that too many times myself and usually people just roll their eyes at me (I realized I did it here even lol->). I've played games since writing them on the VIC-20 and Timex Sinclair, myself and sometimes fall into the trap of not looking at something new with 'virgin eyes' lol. Being an old trekkie as well, I'm reminded of the conversation between Kirk and the Chancelor in VI about them (the older ones with more experience) being the most difficult ones to convert. Some people I knew were like 'how can you have an MMO, you dont even have trade skills or crafting skills and its all instanced, blah blah'. Other than telling them its not an MMO, I would tell them that it's possible those things aren't needed in a game like this. With glazed eyes most of em went back to Galaxies, EverCrack, or WoW.

Most people here probably don't care what others think (just things on the other side of the internet). It's self-serving though to get rid of the level grinders (under the assumption that the other playerbase is large enough to sustain ANet, which may or may not be the case) so that we get the game our way :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I predict the day Diablo 3 comes out, ANet will not get another dime from me. That's almost 100% assured considering what I've spent my money on and what kind of ROI I've gotten in GW:F and how I don't see it getting any better.

I bought 3 copies of Chapter 1, one copy of chapter 2, and if there isn't a compelling reason, this downward trend will continue with no future purchases.

I'm of the opinion that Chap 3 is make or break. I like the fast leveling (could even do with levels being removed, though that wouldn't happen), but the content and bugs are driving me up the wall. Unfortunately, it's a very addictive game and it's not a case of 'you dont like it play -insert MMO-' because I don't play MMOs anymore where you pay (haven't in quite a long time). I play other games (FPS, RPG, RTS, even CCG's and PnP RPGs).

Navaros · Jun 16, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Truthfully, if you really really enjoy grinding levels then you are playing the wrong game in the same sense that a HALO/Quake veteran looking for something similar would be playing the wrong game.

I suspect that ANet makes (plans to make) more money from having casual players than they do hardcore level grinders. Jeff hinted at that in his latest interview when he said GW is the kind of game you can play for a few months, go onto something else, then grab it off the shelf, dust it off, and play it again when a new chapter comes out. That is definitely not hardcore gaming.

I actually consider levelling up to not be grinding, whereas to me all of the end game content in Guild Wars is grinding.

To me the idea that Guild Wars is not based on grind is a myth.

Want a good emote? You're gonna have to grind a whole lotta fame for many hundreds if not thousands of hours, in addition to the party finding/making grind which is even worse.

Want Fissure armor? You're gonna have to farm grind a whole lot of loot for many hundreds if not thousands of hours, not to mention the additional hours of headache-causing trade spam grind you must perform to sell any of your loot.

Want a good title? You're gonna have to grind the title activity for many hundreds if not thousands of hours.

Want to own a town? You have to be in a Guild that grinds for faction constantly.

All that stuff seems to be something that only a hardcore player will ever get.

MSecorsky · Jun 16, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I actually consider levelling up to not be grinding, whereas to me all of the end game content in Guild Wars is grinding.

To me the idea that Guild Wars is not based on grind is a myth.

Want a good emote? You're gonna have to grind a whole lotta fame for many hundreds if not thousands of hours, in addition to the party finding/making grind which is even worse.

Want Fissure armor? You're gonna have to farm grind a whole lot of loot for many hundreds if not thousands of hours, not to mention the additional hours of headache-causing trade spam grind you must perform to sell any of your loot.

Want a good title? You're gonna have to grind the title activity for many hundreds if not thousands of hours.

Want to own a town? You have to be in a Guild that grinds for faction constantly.

All that stuff seems to be something that only a hardcore player will ever get.

However, you don't have to grind to compete. That's all that was promised. Optional grindage is available.

Loch · Jun 16, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Factions is a decent game. It in no way revolutionizes Guild Wars, but it adds enough new content and features to consider giving the franchise another go. Hardcore fans who expected a revolution in online gaming became ridiculously vocal and whiney about not receiving said revolution.

Progress to level 20 was accelerated for Factions, and more than likely all future chapters, because most of the content was designed to be instantly playable with all your existing level 20 toons. If you want to start a new Canthan toon, you level up a lot on the Shing Jea isle, then get shipped off to the Canthan mainland to gain your remaining levels through easily-henchable quests. Then you're ready to take on the missions.

So if you liked Prophecies and aren't sick of PvE, pick up Factions.

The Great Al · Jun 16, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

However, you don't have to grind to compete. That's all that was promised. Optional grindage is available.

But, after a while, all that there is left to do, is grind!

If the starting island is for the most part considered pre-searing and the marketplace or kaineng center starts the 'real' game, what is the point of leveling at all? everyone in that part of the game, the 'real' game, is level 20.

CyberNigma · Jun 16, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

A realization, Mimi. It's a realization I guess kind of like an alcoholic looking in the mirror and realizing it lol.. According to his interview Jeff Straing said its the kind of game that you'd play for a few months, then shelve it till the next release (2-3 I think he mentioned). Well if you finished it in 3 days and I finished it in about a week, I think that we are most definitely not in their line of sight. That kinda sucks lol. It kinda goes against any complaints I've been fielding in other forums about lack of content. Quite possibly that's a good thing for them (enough for the slow few hours here and a few hours there people, but not enough for the hardcore peeps taking up their bandwidth and time).

I can still complain about the cheese and bugs encountered though :-) I'll still play the game if they fix the bugs and stuff I guess. I do now see though that there won't be much more content than what we are already getting :-( lol and I'd just got done saying we don't see things with 'virgin eyes' yet complained about the lack of content, implying it was like other RPGs and MMOs for extreme games..

Oh well, maybe we'll frag each other at QuakeCon pretending its stupid-assed Rurik (assuming QuakeCon goes this year)..

EDIT: I think you've hit the same spot I've hit Great Al. I think we're playing it faster than what their target is playing it. I still know people that got the game the same time I did (last May) and haven't ascended (they play every now and then), which may be the other extreme so I imagine the 'casual' player is somewhere in between. It looks like we dig our own grave and make the grind lol..

p.s., there's no way I can stop playing like that either :-) maybe I should hit one of those gaming addiction labs in Europe ppl have been talking about.... lol

Navaros, you're petty much right. With those things who knows. Maybe they aren't unified and while some of the team is working on less grind the other doesn't know where to stop. They have thrown in some grind/end-game stuff to keep some of us, just not enough to keep the extremes I think.

Priest Of Sin · Jun 16, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Step 1 to improving GW:

ANY combination of "WTS, <-wts->, Selling, <-----WTS----->, W T S, W.T.S., ect." shall result in that being slammed in the trade channel.

then I'll be happy.

Whiplashr · Jun 17, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shusky

Oh dear, the "happy majority is playing the game!" argument again

This is perhaps the greatest misconception ever.

*rolls eyes*

Just keep telling yourself that.

You must be blind, it's not just in this game, or games in general. It happens everywhere in LIFE.

People who hate somethign are *always* more vocal than those that like it. You can see it in everything and anything you do in life.

And they get more and more upset about it the more they are challenged. This is because they have decided that X is crap.. and when someone tells they they like it, it offends them personally because it's like saying "you are an idiot for thinking it's crap". It attacks their personal opinion, and they get defensive about it.

Just as you are doing by trying to ignore reality and claiming that it's a misconception. You can't abide the fact that everyone else doesn't feel the same was as you do, so you rationalize to yourself.

It's called denial. It's a hard thing to get past sometimes, but trust me, you'll be happier if you come to terms with it.

Energizer Deth Buni · Jun 17, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Actually broken down and bought WOW as I read this... I might be disappointed but its worth 39 bucks for a try...

I think Factions is a good game and the graphics are great, but my only complaint from a PVE standpoint is where are the old players that had good sense? It seems like finding PUGs for PVE things is now a nightmare.

ChildeOfMalkav · Jun 17, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Wow. If you're staying away from Factions but yet playing Prophecies because you hear some people complaining about Factions...well that's just dumb. Can't you think for yourself?

You might actually like it. The fact that you're asking questions about Factions means that you're definately interested. And the fact that you still play Prophecies means that you definately like GW. So just go get Factions and decide for yourself instead of listening to a bunch of complainers.

Empex · Jun 17, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I'm happy with factions but I just can't bother advocating it on the Internet all day long

ChildeOfMalkav · Jun 17, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

And to Mimi: It sounds like you've been playing WAAAYYY too much GW. So how can it be surprising that you're bored with Factions? You bought 3 copies of Ch.1? Man, I'd get burnt out on any game if you actually played half of those slots in those 3 accounts.

Dont blame the game itself for boring you. It just looks so obvious to me that you've simply burnt out on the game and were expecting something completely different from Ch.2.

You've been ranting on these boards for months about how you dont like the game anymore. Why are you still on these boards then?

sharps · Jun 17, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Factions is the easiest heap of **** iv seen in a long time. It is good for a few items - thats about it.

All the hard work that used to be put into aquiring items and getting to lvl 20 has now just dissappeared. Iv gotten to lvl 20 on factions in 7 hrs - prphicies takes about 24hours. Anybody who buys factions before prophicies is a fool because they wont b able to survive in prophicies. 3000+ xp for talking to somebody outside an outpost. I think the last mission on the entire game was proable the easiest. Killing shiro (last mission) wasnt alot harder than killing the dopplegangbanger or w/e he is called.

The old way to get Greens is SF only - now iv heard alotof my alliance members talking abou just getting greens of random bosses dotted around the tiny map.

SOme may think that on Prophicies you actually go to a small amount of the map .... of the tiny map there s on factions you never come close to seeing almos all the southern ide of the map.

BUT - all that being said factions is good for some new elites and armour.

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 17, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildeOfMalkav

And to Mimi: It sounds like you've been playing WAAAYYY too much GW. So how can it be surprising that you're bored with Factions? You bought 3 copies of Ch.1? Man, I'd get burnt out on any game if you actually played half of those slots in those 3 accounts.

Dont blame the game itself for boring you. It just looks so obvious to me that you've simply burnt out on the game and were expecting something completely different from Ch.2.

You've been ranting on these boards for months about how you dont like the game anymore. Why are you still on these boards then?

Well, you see, I don't recall actually writing anything anywhere saying "I hate Factions".

I feel I've been cheated out of 50 bucks for a product that is worth no more than an expansion. That doesn't mean I HATE the game - just the publishers and the development team.

But what I do hate is people telling me what to do, or how I should feel about something.

Mercenary for Hyre · Jun 17, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Faction's storyline sucks, it is way too easy to Lv up, and Togo talks like some weird computer geek Yoda. Other than that Ive enjoyed it.

Amon Borknagar · Jun 17, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I have to agree with Mimi that Factions is rather more like a $30 dollar expansion. Iv'e been playing games for over 20 years...If I had bought factions by itself, as a stand alone game, I would have been royally disappointed. I don't think there really is enough there to call it a stand alone title. But, put it together with Prophecies and it takes on an entirely different persona. It only gives me a place to go for a change of scenery with my lvl 20 warrior.

I thought Factions was gonna split my Guild too. Luckily we got a handle on it. Some of my guildies farm faction and some do not. We decided to leave it up to each person. There are no faction submission requirements in my guild. But it is hard to get a group when the only guildies that are on are in alliance battles. The irony of it was that I had predicted before factions came out that it had the potential to drive a rift into the guild. Everyone thought I was nuts. But then it started to happen. I called them on it and we worked it out.

I played factions for about two weeks with a new character and grew bored with it. I feel that it has way to much running around an retracing your steps just to complete a quest. Maybe this was to compensate for what I believe to be a rather tiny map.

In short it is common knowledge that many ppl feel let down with factions. I have to say that I feel compelled to play in Tyria.... not so with Cantha. I go weeks at a time without ever stepping foot in Cantha. But thats just me.

The other day I solo'd a level 28 boss. It dropped like a hundred coins or so... I felt ripped off. This is what I wish thay would work on. The drops. Lets face it... it doesnt matter if it is prophecies or factions. After lvl 20... there aint nothin in it for me cept' for the loot. I'm getting bored now because I have only gotten about 5 greens and one lame ass gold in about 7 months of playing. They need to program in better drops. Then I'll be happy.

In my 20+ years of gaming I have learned what I believe to be a basic truth. If your game is RPG based, you better have a solid, emotional story. If you don't the game play better compensate. And if the gameplay is isn't very deep... you better give out massive loot. Diablo 2 didnt have a good story overall, and the gameplay and char development was rather shallow. What it had was loot, loot, loot! Over 25 rare armor sets, and I could go on. There are ppl still playing that game lol. If Diablo 3 looks as good or better than GW and has all the loot of D2 and the depth of GW, I know where I'll be ha ha. Sorry Arena Net. I don't want D2... I want GW w/loot. Then they'll be two games I'm proud to own.

Factions is good overall. It isn't worth 50 bucks. Its a vacation spot. Sorry so long.